The Surprising Meaning Of Matthew 18:20 (where two or more are gathered)
“For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20
I’ve been a pastor for 12+ years and I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard this verse read in church. Where two or more are gathered is most commonly said to give legitimacy to a small gathering at church. Meaning that even though there might only be a few people gathered God is still with them.
But that ignores the context in which this verse is written. The meaning of Matthew 18:20 has nothing to do with God’s presence in small gatherings. To be clear, God is present that’s just not what this passage is talking about.
Matthew 18:20 deserves a closer look. It’s one of the most misquoted and abused passages in the entire Bible. That’s a shame because it’s actually a powerful and practical passage of Scripture that can really benefit us in our lives today.
So, I want to take a deeper look at Matthew 18:20 and see how we should apply “where two or three are gathered in my name” to our lives.
How Matthew 18:20 Is Commonly Misused
Really it’s not just Matthew 18:20 that gets abused, but also Matthew 18:19.
In full it says: “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:19-20
Here’s how this passage is often taken out of context.
1. To Say That When Two Are In Agreement, Whatever They Ask Will Be Done
This is less common, but I still hear this used from time to time. Some will take Matthew 18:19 to mean that when two or three agree on something, then whatever they ask will be done.
In other words, when two or three pray the same prayer God will answer it.
Not only is that not in the context of this verse, but it’s also not accurate theology. In fact, it can be a very dangerous theology that can lead to spiritual abuse.
God listens to our prayers whether we are alone or not. Being with others doesn’t increase the likelihood of God hearing and responding to our prayers.
This interpretation of Matthew 18:19 simply isn’t true and twists Jesus’ words to say something He never said.
2. To Say That When Two Or More Are Gathered, God Is With Them
This is the most common misuse of Matthew 18:20. Often quoted by church leaders in a prayer at a church service or gathering that is dwindling and has less than expected attenders. This interpretation is used to assure church members that Jesus’ presence is still there despite their small gathering.
Typically it sounds something like this: God we thank you that where two or more are gathered in your name you are with us.
That sounds nice. But when you start to actually think about what this actually means it quickly falls apart.
If God is only present when two or three are gathered, what about when we pray alone? If there were only one person present God would not be there? Certainly, no one believes that (I hope). But when we twist this passage this way that’s what it implies.
Most people who use Matthew 18:20 mean no harm. But when we ignore the context we can unintentionally cause harm. This verse is not talking about God’s presence at small gatherings.
When we use this verse this way we can inadvertently imply things we don’t mean. Not only that but we also miss out on the incredible, and practical, true meaning of Matthew 18:20.
The Context Of Matthew 18:20
When we ignore the context in which a passage of the Bible is written we can quite literally make it say anything. Just look at how we’ve misused Matthew 18:20…
One of the simplest and most important things we should do when reading the Bible is to look at it in its original context. Read the verses before and after.
The Matthew 18:20 becomes blatantly obvious when we do this. The problem is most people skip this step and end up misusing the entire passage.
Let’s take a look what is said before “where two or more are gathered in my name.”
If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. ’If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17
Did you catch the topic that Jesus is actually talking about? It’s not about God’s presence in all church gatherings. Jesus is giving instructions about how to handle conflicts with others.
The context of Matthew 18:15-20 is how to handle church discipline. This passage gives us clear and very practical steps we should take in difficult situations.
Matthew 18:19-20 is the encouragement that comes at the end of these instructions. Essentially Jesus is saying you follow these steps and leave the consequences up to me.
Matthew’s original audience would have likely known immediately that this passage was about church discipline. They were primarily Jewish believers and the terminology of this passage would have reminded them of Deuteronomy 19:15-19.
In Matthew 18:15-20 Jesus is borrowing language from this Old Testament passage. Deuteronomy 19 says that two or three witnesses must agree in order to bring a legally binding charge against someone.
In essence what this Old Testament law did was protect the individual. You needed more than one witness to bring a charge; one person could fabricate a lie. Jesus is bringing part of this old law under the new law. He’s showing His people how to handle conflict so that His church can be bound together.
When the context of this passage is ignored you can make Matthew 18:20 say something it was never intended to be about. Which can lead to dangerous theology that can cause harm. In context we can accurately see what Jesus really meant.
Let’s dive a little further into what Matthew 18:20 really means.
The Meaning Of Matthew 18:20 (Where Two Or More Are Gathered)
Matthew 18:20 centers around how to handle conflicts within the church.
What Jesus is doing in Matthew 18:20 is He’s giving an order of process to follow when you have a conflict with a fellow believer. Here’s how it breaks down:
- Talk to them privately about the issue.
- If they refuse to repent, grab two or three people who are trusted within the church and talk to them again.
- If they still refuse to repent, bring the issue to the church leaders.
- And finally, if they still refuse to repent then it’s time to remove them from the church. With the hope, they will see the error in their way and return.
One quick note on the last step. When someone is removed from the church we are to treat them as a sinner. This step is often misunderstood. Jesus gives us CLEAR instructions on how to handle those who are not following him. We love them. This final step is a call to love, not turn a cold shoulder.
Jesus is giving incredibly practical advice. Here’s showing us how things should run in the Kingdom of God. But you don’t even need to be a Christian to appreciate it. Anyone who works in any kind of organization could benefit from following this process in times of conflict.
Just imagine how much healthier the church (or any organization) would be if we actually followed this process. This would solve SO many problems in the church, in the workplace, in our neighborhoods, and in our families, if we just followed this Biblical command.
3 Ways To Apply Matthew 18:20 To Your Life
I want to end by summarizing what we’ve looked at into 3 practical takeaways from Matthew 18:20. Here’s how ‘where two or more are gathered in my name’ applies to us today.
1. Follow Jesus’ Process
We should follow this process that Jesus has given us. That should seem obvious. Unfortunately, I’ve seen many churches ignore these incredibly practical instructions.
When we are faced with conflict within the body of Christ we should follow these steps. Why? So the church can remain strong and unified. When we ignore this process disunity and turmoil ensue.
This is something no church and no follower of Jesus should ignore.
2. Don’t Avoid Difficult Conversations
Most of us prefer to avoid conflict. I get it, I’m one of them. But the reality is when we avoid those whom we have conflict with we are just making the problem worse.
There’s a reason Jesus’ first step is to go talk with the person. When we ignore conflict it festers. It ends up hurting us and them more and more with each passing day. Rather than ignoring it we need to deal with it.
It’s painful, but it’s necessary. Don’t avoid those difficult conversations.
3. Trust In Jesus’ Presence
Jesus promises that when we follow His process He will be with us. We aren’t doing this alone.
It can be easy when we are entering into a difficult conversation to forget that God is with us. Taking just a few minutes to remind ourselves of that and place our trust in Him can change what happens next.
Trust in God’s process and His presence. He will provide you with what you need to get through what’s ahead of you.
Closing Thoughts On “Where Two Or More Are Gathered”
I want to end with a great summarization of what Matthew 18:20 means.
Mark Moore in The Chronological Life Of Christ says it this way, The prayer of verse 19 is not for “anything” we might plan or desire, but any judicial matter. The word pragma often indicates financial matters or legal decisions (cf. 1 Cor 6:1). And the “two or three brought together” in verse 20 is not talking about worship services. (The omnipresence of God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit assure Jesus’ presence even where a Christian is alone.) The word “come together” [synegmenoi] means “united,” not merely “gathered.” So what this text promises is that God will put his stamp of approval on judicial decisions among church members who come to a mutual agreement.
This verse is not saying that God is present when there are two or three people. Or that God will give what we ask when two or more people are in agreement. Rather it’s a process for us to follow when there is conflict and a promise that God is with us while going through that process.
I always cringe when I hear this verse quoted in church. I cringe because far too often I’ve seen people twist this verse into something it’s not. And that is a dangerous practice that can have disastrous results. God’s word has some incredibly powerful truths for us today. But when we ignore the original meaning we often miss the depth of the truth of God.
Next time, pay attention to the context so that you don’t miss the beauty of passages like Matthew 18:20.
Looking for a great resource to help you grow in your faith? I HIGHLY recommend Mark Moore’s books Core 52 and Quest 52. These simple 15-minute daily readings will help you connect with God and understand the Bible better. They are INCREDIBLE. Plus there are kids/teen versions as well!
I believe the message Matthew is telling us is we often become discouraged and our faith in God suffers. We are only human and even we do are best we feel unworthy, impatient or lack understanding in our faith. Having someone help us through God’s love and their kindness will uplift our spirit back into our. FATHERS present. The church is not a building or any single grouping. It is to your teacher the one who is truth. If he becomes lost let him go. We are not to waste our time , people are hungry for God word.
it is wrong to say it is dangerous to include an application of this passage to describe the local gathering of believers for worship. Mt. 18:20 can stand on its own apart from the previous context. We are gathered by God in His Name and not to another, not Roman Catholic, Baptist, or any other name. We are gathered also unto Jesus for the purpose of worshipping Him and being led by Him and nit man. We are reminded of His presence among us so we may look to , wait upon and trust His direction and leading through His Word and Holy Spirit.
Hi can you tell me what Bible you are using? I have never seen that quote before. Treat them like pagans or tax collectors! This interpretation reeks of judgement. It means exactly what it says. Jesus will be present when you are sharing in his name. If you don’t believe this you are not in faith. Jesus did not create a church! He asked for us to follow him.
Thanks for what you shared Bro but isn’t it true that the original scriptures did not really have chapters or verses? So how sure are you that we are using out of context, the scripture about asking God with unity of hearts (for how can they gather iN HIS NAME and agree in prayer without unity of hearts? if they have conflicts?) . I agree 100% with you Brother that there is a need (actually great great need) to expose sin among us, His church in the spirit of gentleness, in breaking “fake rumors” that lead to disunity. So don’t you think that what it is more meaning to say that if we rebuke sin among us and do it property (first only two, then with other witnesses, then before the church..), that when done in love will bring back the unity among us so that WHATEVER WE ASK IN HIS NAME, even if there are only two of you (that one confronted and the one who loved enough to correct) that the Lord is with them and will grant their request? How can two pray in unity when there is hypocrisy, false accusations (thus the need for witnesses).. everything must stem from love because we are all only forgiven sinners. It takes humble man full of love to correct a sinner for the former was too a sinner and received grace (undeserved favor and blessing) from God our Father. Hope you don’t mind my take on the subject Bro. I am open to what you think and learn from you. In Christ’s love, DJ
i love your explanation The holy spirit revealed it to me this morning but i needed a confirmation and better understanding
Thanks! It amazes me how often verses are taken out of context. This verse came up on my Bible app today and of course I had been taught it meant that God answers the prayers of 2-3 people. The thing is I work for a Christian organization that uses the Math 18 conflict process so I am very familiar with the preceeding verses and I just had to see how prayer fit into that context. After I read the whole chapter I was pretty certain all the teachings I have heard on these verses were wrong.
I handle a lot of conflict in my leadership role and it is reassuring to know that even in those hard and uncomfortable conversations God is there. Thanks for the biblical, logical and historical explanation!
I really enjoyed your explanation of this passage. The only thing i don’t understand is step 4. If we remove this person from the church and treat them as a sinner, how are we to love them while they’re being disciplined? Can we love them right out of the discipline they’re meant to receive with the hope of leading them to repentance?
Thanks!
This is correct. To add though, the witnesses to bring a charge is actually more specific -and maybe you said this, but I wasn’t seeing it- but in Judaism the witness ALSO had ti be a legitimate witness meaning you can’t testify to something you do not have direct witness of, and if you did there were negative consequences. “With them” meaning perhaps that the Truth is with them. The law is not specific to private approach, it is about the qualification of a witness to be a witness.
Thank you so much for the way you explained this verse. Apparently, it has indeed been taken out of context by many well meaning people. I really appreciate how your advice concerning the interpretation of Biblical verses in general-read the preceding and the following verses (the whole passage in which the verse occurs) to establish context. I have been taught that context is everything (or at the very least, vitally important) in biblical interpretation. While there may be multiple applications of a verse, there is only one true interpretation. Verses taken out of context and used to make a point or address and/or support an issue can lead to harm. A former teacher of mine called it “cherry picking” and it is a common mistake that can lead to the formation of false doctrine.
Again, thank you for the clarification of this verse. You are correct : knowledge of the true meaning is very valuable in other areas of life in which conflict may arise, not just church discipline.
Thank you. God bless you
Been misqoting Matthew 18:20 for decades. Once, my 8year old Grandson responded blatantly that God is always with us. And I still didn’t get it. Now, two years later, I finally get it. HalleluYah!!!
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I think you’ve lost the meanings pertinent to what a sin was and who gets to decide what should be done about it. Bring a church down on a “dinner” because they don’t want women excluded from from the clergy? Or three of us want to pray together that gays are sinners and must be cast out of all societies? Or enslave those whose skin color isn’t ours? It is a prostitute’s fate to be left for dead because we men caused there to be prostitution and can do anything we want to what we’ve created? Or what exactly… Who chooses what prayer is acceptable to send to the heavens – if it can be prayed by a church, it is good to one god, and only the one god, who is pleased to hear it? Doesn’t god know what we want and need without us telling him… If, in the name of God, a church prays for favor because they are doing what he wants them to do and be then their racist, misogynistic, homophobic, anti all other disciplines, etc. are pleasing to God. O. My. This ends where it began: who decides what the sin is and who decides the fate of the sinner (other sinful sinners?)
I agree with what you’ve shared here in regards to what this scripture actually means, for this is how my father explained it to me also. However, I must share what Holy Spirit shows to me straight away when reading your article. You are correct about this scriptures true meaning, however, are you honestly telling me from the power of the Holy Spirit, not the human mind, that if you are to gather and pray together that this holds no more strength or power?. You are correct that God hears our prayers whether we are on our own or with others but you are unfortunately missing the true blessing when praying with others. Are you telling me that if you were gathered together with your brothers and sisters and they are praying to God with you and for you or you for them, that this would not encourage everyone, uplift everyone, make you all feel more cared for and loved, therefore strengthening everyone and building everyone’s faith in God?.
When we as God’s people see the reflection of Christ in others, this surely strengthens us, does it not, therefore wouldn’t this in turn assist our fervent prayers?. When we are sick, are we not told to seek the elders of the church to pray for us, and also notice that it states elders, not just one, why is this, why would more elders praying for you matter. Yes, God hears our prayers when we are on our own but it is dangerous and ignorant to say that there is no more benefit from praying together, for God’s people are the body of Christ, there is much more power when we are gathered together in His name, praying or otherwise, always has been, always will be, otherwise why gather. Unless you have had that person directly tell you that they do not believe God is with them when they are on their own then I must tell you that you are assuming that this is what they think and feel. Otherwise people are just meaning that when we are gathered in God’s presence, the Holy Spirit can move upon us, therefore it can feel very different from when you are merely on your own, even when the Holy Spirit moves within you, sharing this experience with others is extremely different indeed.
Lastly, I must share that God’s word far exceeds merely learning in context. For it is of God to hide a matter and of kings to seek it out. God has hidden truths in the bible that only the Holy Spirit can reveal to His people, this has allowed God to keep these hidden truths from falling into the wrong hands and therefore being abused. Anyone can use the bible and profit from it and they do, however they will forever be learning and never come to the knowledge of truth, for the truth is hidden and only revealed by the power of the Holy Spirit. Too many people these days get caught up in Theology but this does not teach the power of the Holy Spirit. theology schools should not even exist, for they are not of God, anyone who takes money to teach the truths of God is not of God. However, I’m looked at as an extremist for a do not believe money is of God and think that we would all benefit if we returned to nature and lived very simply, without technology, without money and all of these creature comforts, that have in fact made us comfortable, too comfortable.
It’s interesting that Matthew (the author of this Gospel) was a tax collector. So then how did Jesus treat Matthew? What about Gentiles? Jesus sent Paul to reach them. Right after this, Peter asks Jesus how often he’s supposed to forgive people, which should inform the context of what they understood him to be saying. He’s challenging them to practice the ministry of reconciliation, ie 2 Corinthians 5.
The way that I have been hearing Mathew 18:20 being used is instead of one actually going to a brick and mortar church, where two or three shall gather in Jesus’ name, he is with us. Basically, put saying that as long as you are gathered in Jesus’ name it does not matter where one calls church.
MATTHEW HENRY:
(1.) God’s readiness to answer the church’s prayers (Mat_18:19); If two of you shall agree harmoniously, touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them. Apply this,
[1.] In general, to all the requests of the faithful praying seed of Jacob; they shall not seek God’s face in vain. Many promises we have in scripture of a gracious answer to the prayers of faith, but this gives a particular encouragement to the joint-prayer; “the requests which two of you agree in, much more which many agree in.” No law of heaven limits the number of petitioners. Note, Christ has been pleased to put an honour upon, and to allow a special efficacy in, the joint-prayers of the faithful, and the common supplications they make to God. If they join in the same prayer, if they meet by appointment to come together to the throne of grace on some special errand, or, though at a distance, agree in some particular matter of prayer, they shall speed well. Besides the general regard God has to the prayers of the saints, he is particularly pleased with their union and communion in those prayers. See 2Ch_5:13; Act_4:31.
[2.] In particular, to those requests that are put up to God about binding and loosing; to which this promise seems more especially to refer.
Observe, First, That the power of church discipline is not here lodged in the hand of a single person, but two, at least, are supposed to be concerned in it. When the incestuous Corinthian was to be cast out, the church was gathered together (1Co_5:4), and it was a punishment inflicted of many, 2Co_2:6. In an affair of such importance, two are better than one, and in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Secondly, It is good to see those who have the management of church discipline, agreeing in it. Heats and animosities, among those whose work it is to remove offences, will be the greatest offence of all.
Thirdly, Prayer must evermore go along with church discipline. Pass no sentence, which you cannot in faith ask God to confirm. The binding and loosing spoken of (Mat_16:19) was done by preaching, this by praying. Thus the whole power of gospel ministers is resolved into the word and prayer, to which they must wholly give themselves. He doth not say, “If you shall agree to sentence and decree a thing, it shall be done” (as if ministers were judges and lords); but, “If you agree to ask it of God, from him you shall obtain it.” Prayer must go along with all our endeavours for the conversion of sinners; see
Jas_5:16.
Fourthly, The unanimous petitions of the church of God, for the ratification of their just censures, shall be heard in heaven, and obtain an answer; “It shall be done, it shall be bound and loosed in heaven; God will set his fiat to the appeals and applications you make to him.” If Christ (who here speaks as one having authority) say, “It shall be done,” we may be assured that it is done, though we see not the effect in the way that we look for it. God doth especially own and accept us, when we are praying for those that have offended him and us. The Lord turned the captivity of Job, not when he prayed for himself, but when he prayed for his friends who had trespassed against him.
(2.) The presence of Christ in the assemblies of Christians, Mat_18:20. Every believer has the presence of Christ with him; but the promise here refers to the meetings where two or three are gathered in his name, not only for discipline, but for religious worship, or any act of Christian communion. Assemblies of Christians for holy purposes are hereby appointed, directed, and encouraged.
[1.] They are hereby appointed; the church of Christ in the world exists most visibly in religious assemblies; it is the will of Christ that these should be set up, and kept up, for the honour of God, the edification of men, and the preserving of a face of religion upon the world. When God intends special answers to prayer, he calls for a solemn assembly, Joe_2:15, Joe_2:16. If there be no liberty and opportunity for large and numerous assemblies, yet then it is the will of God that two or three should gather together, to show their good-will to the great congregation. Note, When we cannot do what we would in religion, we must do as we can, and God will accept us.
[2.] They are hereby directed to gather together in Christ’s name. In the exercise of church discipline, they must come together in the name of Christ, 1Co_5:4. That name gives to what they do an authority on earth, and an acceptableness in heaven. In meeting or worship, we must have an eye to Christ; must come together by virtue of his warrant and appointment, in token of our relation to him, professing faith in him, and in communion with all that in every place call upon him. When we come together, to worship God in a dependence upon the Spirit and grace of Christ as Mediator for assistance, and upon his merit and righteousness as Mediator for acceptance, having an actual regard to him as our Way to the Father, and our Advocate with the Father, then we are met together in his name.
[3.] They are hereby encouraged with an assurance of the presence of Christ; There am I in the midst of them. By his common presence he is in all places, as God; but this is a promise of his special presence. Where his saints are, his sanctuary is, and there he will dwell; it is his rest (Psa_132:14), it is his walk (Rev_2:1); he is in the midst of them, to quicken and strengthen them, to refresh and comfort them, as the sun in the midst of the universe. He is in the midst of them, that is, in their hearts; it is a spiritual presence, the presence of Christ’s Spirit with their spirits, that is here intended. There am I, not only I will be there, but I am there; as if he came first, is ready before them, they shall find him there; he repeated this promise at parting (Mat_28:20), Lo, I am with you always. Note, The presence of Christ in the assemblies of Christians is promised, and may in faith be prayed for and depended on; There am I. This is equivalent to the Shechinah, or special presence of God in the tabernacle and temple of old, Exo_40:34; 2Ch_5:14.
Though but two or three are met together, Christ is among them; this is an encouragement to the meeting of a few, when it is either, First, of choice. Besides the secret worship performed by particular persons, and the public services of the whole congregation, there may be occasion sometimes for two or three to come together, either for mutual assistance in conference or joint assistance in prayer, not in contempt of public worship, but in concurrence with it; there Christ will be present. Or,
Secondly, By constraint; when there are not more than two or three to come together, or, if there be, they dare not, for fear of the Jews, yet Christ will be in the midst of them, for it is not the multitude, but the faith and sincere devotion, of the worshippers, that invites the presence of Christ; and though there be but two or three, the smallest number that can be, yet, it Christ make one among them, who is the principal one, their meeting is as honourable and comfortable as if they were two or three thousand.
Some of your critics are a bit uh, strident in their response. However I find general agreement with their points that you’ve really not presented anything that changes the meaning most hear and understand when Matt 18:20 is read…
The context is church discipline I agree.
The guarantee that these are solid principles that work is …what?
Mat 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the middle of them.”
Verse 20 states the principle that underscores vv 15-19. In fact, v :16 loses all meaning otherwise in an eisegesis that says :20 cannot be understood in the 1st sense.
“If the 1st sense makes good sense, seek no other sense.”
Your attempt at deconstructing this understanding by saying “Of course God hears my prayers when I’m alone~!” – Strikes me as a bit “callow” I think a good word would be for it? There’s no problem because Jesus is not stating the “two or more” principle in opposition to anything.
OTOH, Acts 2 & 4 demonstrate the principle in bold, colorful strokes. The presence of God followed by visible signs in a multitude of believers. God resting on one person’s head in isolation doesn’t seem to do much, does it? Won’t build a church very fast.
Therefore, God is manifest in a gathering in a way that he isn’t in other situations. And even if they’re “gathered” over the phone or email, same principle applies.
You follow-up by stating you do believe God is present in a gathering of 2 or more, but you give no justification as such, unless I missed something? Furthermore, it would seem to be pointless for Jesus to give such a grandiose declaration for of all things, giving someone the boot from church.
Finally you touch on possible Haginesque interpretations of v 18-19, and here I’m sympathetic. But that simply points up the need to not read verses in isolation, and to study up on what kind of people we are to be. The parts that forbid greed and materialism work rather nicely, here.
However, misuse of verse don’t make them any less true. Note this is also affirmed in Matt 16:19, 1 Jn 5:14-15 [with qualification,] and to a lesser degree – 1 Cor 5:4, Amos 3:3.
The 1st sense of Matt 18:20 is exactly that – The first sense. The context being church discipline changes that not one iota.
Some of your critics are a bit uh, strident in their response. However I find general agreement with their points that you’ve really not presented anything that changes the meaning most hear and understand when Matt 18:20 is read..
The context is church discipline I agree.
The guarantee that these are solid principles that work is …what?
Mat 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the middle of them.”
Verse 20 states the principle that underscores vv 15-19. In fact, v :16 loses all meaning otherwise in an eisegesis that says :20 cannot be understood in the 1st sense.
“If the 1st sense makes good sense, seek no other sense.”
Your attempt at deconstructing this understanding by saying “Of course God hears my prayers when I’m alone~!” – Strikes me as a bit “callow” I think a good word would be for it? There’s no problem because Jesus is not stating the “two or more” principle in opposition to anything.
OTOH, Acts 2 & 4 demonstrate the principle in bold, colorful strokes. The presence of God followed by visible signs in a multitude of believers. God resting on one person’s head in isolation doesn’t seem to do much, does it? Won’t build a church very fast.
Therefore, God is manifest in a gathering in a way that he isn’t in other situations. And even if they’re “gathered” over the phone or email, same principle applies.
You follow-up by stating you do believe God is present in a gathering of 2 or more, but you give no justification as such, unless I missed something? Furthermore, it would seem to be pointless for Jesus to give such a grandiose declaration for of all things, giving someone the boot from church.
Finally you touch on possible Haginesque interpretations of v 18-19, and here I’m sympathetic. But that simply points up the need to not read verses in isolation, and to study up on what kind of people we are to be. The parts that forbid greed and materialism work rather nicely, here.
However, misuse of verse don’t make them any less true. Note this is also affirmed in Matt 16:19, 1 Jn 5:14-15 [with qualification,] and to a lesser degree – 1 Cor 5:4, Amos 3:3.
The 1st sense of Matt 18:20 is exactly that – The first sense. The context being church discipline changes that not one iota.
I truly appreciate the main points of your article, but you have confused me with the translation for this verse you are using. You quote Mathew 18:20 as “For where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I with them.” However, in any version of KJV, I find only, “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” You state that you cringe when you hear the verse quoted in church because of how easily it is misinterpreted, though you consistently misquote the actual verse (which specifically states “when two or three are gathered”). Which version of the KJV are you using? Just a question that occurred to me. Thanks.
Hi Tim! I don’t use the KJV Translation which is why you notice the difference. I primarily use the ESV AND NIV. There’s a LOT of translations out there. Some good, some not so much, and some really bad ones. I do not believe the KJV is a reliable translation. Not the worst, but I think there’s much better translations that interpret the original texts much more accurately. I’ve written on that, if you search for Bible translations on rethink you will find the article.
I know that for some KJV is the only “reliable” translation. But that’s simply a misinformed opinion that’s based in tradition and not academic study. That’s my stance and I choose to not argue it, but rather state it. I’ve found argument over this topic amount to nothing. I do not believe it’s a salvation issue and therefore do want to create disunity over it. If you disagree with me that’s totally fine.
But regardless of what translation you use it doesn’t change the point of the article. Each translation is translating this passage from Kione Greek and we don’t have a perfect word for word translation as the two languages are not the same. That’s why you notice differences in translations. Whatever translation you use the misuse of MATTHEW 18:20 is still the same.
Thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment!
The truth in an entire statement does not remove or reduce the truth in statements of fact within that statement that can stand alone on their own. Even though it contradicts common sense, some will state that Matthew 18:19 must only be about church discipline in that is what Jesus is discussing at the time. The fact that faith can move a mountain just does not apply to the mountain. It applies to any other object that might need to be moved. Matthew 18:19 states: “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.”
Let’s break that statement down. First when Jesus wants to bring emphasis to a statement He says “truly.” Note His statements in the Gospels and that much is plain to see. Next we see who he is referring to. “If two of you on earth.” That means any two of us that occupy space on earth. That means to comply with the context there must be two of us living on this earth. Now what is He referring to? “Agree about anything they ask for.” You know what the word anything means. Ah, the word “all” comes up again. It covers “all.” It covers anything. Not just matters that are covered by church discipline, but “all” or “the whole.” Is healing included in “all?” I think so. Is forgiveness included in “all.” Seems like it might be. Is a job request? Yep, it does. . Now let’s see what happens when two agree about anything. “It will be done for them by my Father in heaven.” Done means “come into being”; “come about”; or “happen.” I believe that it is relatively clear that this statement while being used in a discussion regarding church discipline refers to a much broader base of items and issues….unless “all” means something that I don’t think it does.
Praise the lord
Thankyou
Its true
I really enjoyed reading this because it makes perfect sense.
Excellent. I’ve always thought that this method of conflict resolution should be adopted by everyone. Businesses and schools included. Yet, it could be misused in the wrong hands. Getting two or three friends to support your side of an argument could become mobbing. Although this usually entails going in the wrong order. (If they talk to the others first it’s a bad sign)
I do believe gathering is an important part of the faith. I think Hebrews 10:24-25 covers this. Are there any other verses that support the idea that we should meet regularly?
One more thing. Are we supposed to love the tax collector too?
Some verses are a prophecy. They are mentioned in different passages whose context differs. That is why some people quote the verse out of its context. God speaks to believers in different ways. Sometimes the Holy Spirit speaks just one verse to you, giving you direction, a warning, or instruction, and you will know simple that God has spoken without knowing the context of the verse. The holy spirit does not use academic methods to Interpret the Bible. The secrets of God’s kingdom are hidden within the scriptures. It only takes a genuine believer, chosen by Grace to know God’s will. Theologists fail to understand that there is no institution in the whole wide world that can teach you about God or how to interpret scriptures. Holy Spirit teaches you.
Beloved, both views are correct. As a Pastor Teacher, one teaches the flock of God in contextual form (his spiritual gift). As a Prophet and or, Apostle (personal spokesman-special messenger) hence the words, “personal” and “special”, one delivers these messages in dispensational form ( again, spiritual gift (s). The word of God is living and active, it cuts and heals. It’s a double edged sword. It’s personal-not private-and it’s practical-not impractical. Amen. Love you all in Christ.
-Apostle Samuel
Thank you for sharing this. I sometimes get my feelings hurt when I “agree in prayer” with several people and God decides not to answer the prayer—especially for healing. The verse seemed to be a promise He wasn’t keeping.
Dude you have no clue what you are talking about as do most preachers. First off men have no business trying to translate the Word of GOD, man, GODS Word the magical book to the creation of life. He is the only one that knows what he is saying in that book as he tells you if you have read it all, he says I have one in creation that no one is like, And in acts 4vs18 I believe it is people are commanded to stop teaching in Jesus name. For many reasons people sick dying cause of all the lies being taught in all of the creation people actually think sugar is bad for them when it comes from who???? GOD. I can go on and on with all kinds of examples. But here’s the easiest way to get your spirit and soul right. Don’t judge one thing in Life, cause their is not one thing that comes from the ground that is bad for you. Meaning all food is good and that is a fact and also you don’t need to watch what you eat, calories are thought up by some genius lol, whatever you eat when it passes into the stomach it’s done and gone when you know how to live here you don’t even need toilet paper unless you need to blow your nose.
Basically an excuse for GOD not answering our prayers, Always a way out right?
Not sure what you are referring to. This post isn’t about God answering our prayers. This is about reading the Bible in context regarding Matthew 18:20. This passage isn’t about general prayers, as many interpret it. When we read the whole context it’s clearly about church discipline.
God does answer our prayers. There’s plenty of scripture that backs that up and I’ve written on many of those.
100% WRONG…. If Jesus only wanted to say 18:15, He would not have “expanded” and given more breadth and power in 18:19 and likewise 18:20.
Matthew 18:20 is an expansion of 18:19 and 18:19 is an expansion of 18:15.
That’s why Jesus said them in the first place.
Poor Biblical Analysis….. It’s No wonder the Church is so messed up today.
You got Biblical leaders and writers who are so short sighted like the Pharisees and their interpretation of the Sabbath Day.
So then I’m wondering what your definition of the church is. Because according to the Bible it is a gathering of believers. If believers are gathered, the God is amongst the body which Christ as the head. This passage is not just about judgement, it shows that God is present when people who believe gather. Acts 2:1-47, Ephesians 4:11-16, 1 Corinthians 14:26, and more. I think you have a lot to learn or maybe you are here to deceive people into going into 4 walled buildings to become religious.
This passage isn’t about judgment, it’s about conflict resolution. I’m not arguing that God isn’t present when a group of gathers are together. I’m arguing that’s not the point of this passage. When we read it in context we can see what Jesus is actually communicating.
Not trying to deceive anyone. Just showing people the context in which this verse is written.
I do believe v19 is talking about a prayerful manner. The context is what lead up to that verse tho. Love y’all and only believe!
There is no need to cringe over thinking that God is present where two or more are gathered. That is true just as well.
You are right, God is present when two or more are gathered. He’s also present when one is all alone. The point of this article is that that is not the point of Matthew 18. When you read the whole dialogue that Jesus gave it’s clear what the point actually is. There’s other passages in scripture that talk about God’s presence.
Based on your use of context I can see where you are trying to lead the reader. However the belief one has that God is with them during prayer whether alone or in company should not be hindered nor give the reader a roadblock to believing God is with them. Based on your inverse principle I could debate Jesus never met to establish the Church as we know know it on Earth. He meant to spread the Gospel and the coming of His Kingdom. I think He would be disappointed how some use Him to profit off others, build idols, create extravagant buildings and the such. He never commanded that. Everything He taught was Spiritual not carnal. So to spiritually believe God is with two or more meeting in His name seems more in line with His message than the churches context or preachers context of many things. Don’t be a stumbling block for others spiritual food.
Good word! To me this scripture is taken out of context like you are saying. It is not that what people are saying are wrong, but its not what this verse is saying. There is power in agreement and God’s presence is there when two or more gather, but that is kind of the half truth of this verse if you will. Like Job and his friends. His friends weren’t completely wrong in what they were telling him, but they weren’t right either. I enjoyed your context.
Thank you so much for publicly clarifying this passage: Matthew 18:20. I have heard the passage misrepresented more than I have heard it represented correctly. “When two or more are gathered….” When a minister says it, when a Sunday school teacher says it, when anybody says it – it hurts my heart. What about those who are alone, who live far away from the city or town? They are being told that our Lord is not with them and does not hear them. To me, misrepresenting scripture is spiritual abuse. I heard this passage misrepresented even today by some “pastor” on a social media platform. I have seldom heard it interpreted correctly. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Well I like the twisted version as you call it.
Unfortunately most people do.
Well, honestly…I think it basically means what people have been interpreting it to mean. Although people take things out of context all of the time, I think the general interpretation of this scripture is theologically accurate. I have in fact noticed that the spiritual temperature is increased when you have a group discussion about gospel topics and living right, applying truths to our lives, etc. This observation in no way limits the power of individual worship, but it is clear that there is spiritual power in gathering. Those who reference this scripture as evidence of this fact aren’t incorrect.
What you said is also true, that there are caveats to this promised blessing. There always are. For instance, faith the size of a grain of mustard seed can move mountains. But, to expand on that truth, it must be stated that unless the request is in accord with God’s will, faith isn’t going to move that mountain. That’s because faith is a matter of aligning our will with God’s, not just getting whatever we want. When Christ says that whatsoever we ask shall be given, the fact that He doesn’t state qualifications at that moment doesn’t mean there aren’t any. Clearly, anything we ask that is right, in faith believing, shall be given, whereas if it be not right or if we lack faith, such is not the case. By the same token, two or three gathering with animosity towards each other is not going to have the same spiritual effect as two or three that are unified, and treat each other with respect when resolving conflict.
The scriptures don’t typically spell out everything perfectly all in one place. The gospel does not contradict itself, and must be taken as one great whole. Context in situ is absolutely important, and must not be disregarded. But, people are also in danger of not considering the context of the whole Bible. The same principle is taught about in multiple areas, here a little and there a little, and the gospel must be taken as one great whole that cannot be fully ingested all in one sitting. I have to tell you…there is power in unified prayer, and in “gathering” for a unified purpose, and my personal experiences as well as stories referenced in the Bible sustain this. The “Jerusalem Conference,” when a new apostle was selected, was a solemn and spiritual assembly in which great things were revealed and experienced by the gathered church members. I do believe this was in fact what Christ was teaching, that power comes when we meet together oft. Leaving out the obvious qualifications for the blessing being promised doesn’t mean that the principle doesn’t hold true. It’s possible to underthink any given truth, but also possible to overthink it.
Wow! I was going to use this verse as an example of what church means. It’s an awesome word to learn it means how to deal with legal conflicts within the church.
Right on!
Today is Sunday, March 28, last night my husband and I received a phone call about 11 pm from my step-grandson letting us know his mother had overdosed on meth and is now on life support and it doesn’t look good, her brain is swollen. I consider her my daughter. We were told she was found with a needle in her arm and several laying around her. She did this on her mother’s birthday who had passed away a couple of years ago. I have been praying and this verse came to my mind and I was going to place it on Facebook but I thought before I did I need to know the true meaning of this verse cause I didn’t want others to think God will only hear our prayers or be with us if two or more are gathered praying for the same thing cause I know my Lord hears our prayers and answers them even when we are alone and praying, I think our Father also wants to have a one on one personal relationship with him, he wants us to know he is there for us and we don’t need to be in a crowd of others praying for the same thing. He wants us to depend on him and know he is there for us even when we are alone. In 2011 my oldest son James died from a accidental drug overdose from taking Xanax, morphine, and over-the-counter sleeping pills. I knew 3 days before he died that this was going to happen, James had come over Monday afternoon drunk and I silently prayed “God, I’m so tired of worrying about James and a cool breeze went over my body, I knew it was the Holy Spirit letting me know he was going to take him home where he would be free. We are now in the process of getting custody of his only daughter who is 14 now and was being abused by her mother. When he died I felt like my heart and lungs had been pulled out of my chest and wanted so bad for my mother to be here to pray for me, she was a minister and passed away in 2004. The night before my son’s service, I went into my bathroom, turned out the lights, and laid on the floor crying and wailing so to speak with all his pictures laying around me, that is when God opened my eyes and I knew I had to take his hand and not depend on others praying for me, I used to call mom all the time when life through me big problems, I let her do the praying and use her faith to get me through, looking back it was like a spoil child letting a parent take care of things instead of doing it myself. This time in my life I had no one to call that could give me comfort or strength to even want to go on living and even thought about killing myself to go find my son on the other side, in life we try to protect our children but death is one thing we cannot. Laying there on the floor God took my hand and it was time for me to have my own personal relationship with him, depending on my own prayers, not others and my prayers would be heard no matter who was in that dark room. I know God not only sees our present-day but he sees our future, I know he saw my son’s future would have lead him on a path that he would be lost from God forever, so by letting God know I trusted in him and released him for God to have his way. I heard a voice tell me that the promises God has given us he will never go back on, James was a gift from him and God doesn’t take gifts back, this is one treasure God holds for me in Heaven, the Bible speaks about gifts and those we have loved on this earth, our treasures held for us in Heaven, family and friends we think may have not made it to Heaven will surprise us when we are greeted by them with open arms, to me there is no greater gift than having a Heavenly Father that loves us so much, forgives and forgets our sins just like a snap of our fingers. I was blessed with a mother who loved God so much on this earth that before any of her grandchildren were born she dedicated them to him. She helped the seed of faith grow in me and by having my own relationship with God, I can talk to him by myself, he does want us to pray for one another, it is Gods way of letting us know to love each other as he loves us, when we see our prayers answered, it is so amazing. These past few years have been hard for my husband and me but I never stopped praying and even asked God to be the master of my own home, which is another story I tell others, we inherited his families old home, that needs so much work done to it and we don’t have the money to do it, but now that I have asked God to be the master of our home, we are getting all the work, new roof and all done for free. I don’t look back on my past mistakes, I look back at how God picked me up off that dark bathroom floor in 2011, at times carried me and I see all the blessings he has poured out over my family and friends through these years and I want to tell my story so bad to others to let them know they are worthy of his love and he hears our prayers and most of all he answers them, he keeps his promises.if he hears my prayers and answers them he will answer other people’s prayers. Also, mom taught me when life throws problems my way, to pray for others cause there are others who have problems bigger than mine and by doing this I forget about my own and any problem I give to God shall pass away. Oh.I know he will make things right and better than I can on my own.I want to share what you have taught me today about this verse.I think we sometimes read what we want instead of reading on and finding the true meaning of verses.You make it so understanding by using simple words, cause I’m not that smart, thank you and God Bless you,I know as my stepdaughter is laying there on life support that God is going to have his way, not our way.I love her and would rather have her free of these demons on this earth that have made her a addict but I want God to see her future also and if he sees her being lost and on the wrong path from him forever, to save her now.take her home with him.Sometimes we pray for others the wrong way and I always pray for God’s way to be done not mine.Keep her and every other addict in your prayers.will let you know how she is. Thank you again,I had to edit this a few times,hope I did it right and hope others read this ,understand what I’m trying to say and it helps some one.
Hi Tina Maria Rose, I just read your comment and wanted to know how your step-daughter is doing? Did she make it through or did God call her home to Him?
As a recovered addict my prayers are offered for your loss and suffering.
Take comfort in the fact that our prayers can have an effect on the past, the present and the future. God is the eternal Now where past, present & future are ever present to Him.
When we pray for a loved one who has passed on, those prayers do have an effect with God to have mercy on them because, especially for the addict due to the addictive condition, were incapable of seeking God for help and forgiveness. Our prayers can do that for them.
I believe that with my whole heart.
Today is Sunday, March 28, last night my husband and I received a phone call about 11 pm from my step-grandson letting us know his mother had overdosed on meth and is now on life support and it doesn’t look good, her brain is swollen. I consider her my daughter. We were told she was found with a needle in her arm and several laying around her. She did this on her mother’s birthday who had passed away a couple of years ago. I have been praying and this verse came to my mind and I was going to place it on Facebook but I thought before I did I need to know the true meaning of this verse cause I didn’t want others to think God will only hear our prayers or be with us if two or more are gathered praying for the same thing cause I know my Lord hears our prayers and answers them even when we are alone and praying, I think our Farther also wants to have a one on one personal relationship with him, he wants us to know he is there for us and we don’t need to be in a crowd of others praying for the same thing. He wants us to depend on him and know he is there for us even when we are alone. In 2011 my oldest son James from a accidental drug overdose from taking Xanax, morphine, and over-the-counter sleeping pills. I knew 3 days before he died that this was going to happen, James had come over Monday afternoon drunk and I silently prayed “God, I’m so tired of worrying about James and a cool breeze went over my body, I knew it was the Holy Spirit letting me know he was going to take him home where he would be free. We are now in the process of getting custody of his only daughter who is 14 now and was being abused by her mother. When he died I felt like my heart and lungs had been pulled out of my chest and wanted so bad for my mother to be here to pray for me, she was a minister and passed away in 2004. The night before my son’s service, I went into my bathroom, turned out the lights, and laid on the floor crying and wailing so to speak with all his pictures laying around me, that is when God opened my eyes and I knew I had to take his hand and not depend on others praying for me, I used to call mom all the time when life through me big problems, I let her do the praying and use her faith to get me through, looking back it was like a spoil child letting a parent take care of things instead of doing it myself. This time in my life I had no one to call that could give me comfort or strength to even want to go on living and even thought about killing myself to go find my son on the other side, in life we try to protect our children but death is one thing we cannot. Laying there on the floor God took my hand and it was time for me to have my own personal relationship with him, depending on my own prayers, not others and my prayers would be heard no matter who was in that dark room. I know God not only sees our present-day but he sees our future, I know he saw my son’s future would have lead him on a path that he would be lost from God forever, so by letting God know I trusted in him and released him for God to have his way. I heard a voice tell me that the promises God has given us he will never go back on, James was a gift from him and God doesn’t take gifts back, this is one treasure God holds for me in Heaven, the Bible speaks about gifts and those we have loved on this earth, our treasures held for us in Heaven, family and friends we think may have not made it to Heaven will surprise us when we are greeted by them with open arms, to me there is no greater gift than having a Heavenly Father that loves us so much, forgives and forgets our sins just like a snap of our fingers. I was blessed with a mother who loved God so much on this earth that before any of her grandchildren were born she dedicated them to him. She helped the seed of faith grow in me and by having my own relationship with God, I can talk to him by myself, he does want us to pray for one another, it is Gods way of letting us know to love each other as he loves us, when we see our prayers answered, it is so amazing. These past few years have been hard for my husband and me but I never stopped praying and even asked God to be the master of my own home, which is another story I tell others, we inherited his families old home, that needs so much work done to it and we don’t have the money to do it, but now that I have asked God to be the master of our home, we are getting all the work, new roof and all done for free. I don’t look back on my past mistakes, I look back at how God picked me up off that dark bathroom floor in 2011, at times carried me and I see all the blessings he has poured out over my family and friends through these years and I want to tell my story so bad to others to let them know they are worthy of his love and he hears our prayers and most of all he answers them, he keeps his promises.if he hears my prayers and answers them he will answer other people’s prayers. Also, mom taught me when life throws problems my way, to pray for others cause there are others who have problems bigger than mine and by doing this I forget about my own and any problem I give to God shall pass away. Oh.I know he will make things right better than I can on my own.I want to share what you have taught me today about this verse.I think we sometimes read what we want instead of reading on and finding the true meaning of verses.You make it so understanding by using simple words,cause I’m not that smart, thank you and God Bless you
I do not presently attend a church. I attended multiple churches searching for one I felt really followed all the scriptures. I do not regret that I did so, learned many things. The uppermost being in mind is that I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior and Son of God and was baptized. My daughter is a devout Christian and we talk a couple times a week about things going on in the world and using our Bibles as an answer to many of our questions. I witness for the Lord on Facebook daily and use the Bible often when I feel my words are not adequate. When our Lord is mentioned in a hateful tone, I feel compelled often to respond. I don’t denounce them or correct them, only explain reasons why I disagree. I am disabled and need a wheelchair, cannot do much around our home, but thankfully God has given me purpose.
Mr. Jeffery, I found this very helpful! Thank you! But I am wondering how do you know that the Greek word used for “gathered together” in verse 20 means “united”? I have tried many different websites and they all translated it as “gathering”, “assembling”, or “attached”. Do you know of a reliable source that gives an accurate translation? I am, at the moment, unsure of what to believe.
I’m glad you found it helpful!
The interpretation you mentioned came from a quote I used from Mark Moore’s book, The Chronological Life Of Christ. He goes through the Gospels in chronological order and it’s a really great resource. He was a professor of mine and top notch Bible teacher.
When it comes to translations it’s more an art than an exact science. The issue with translating an ancient language into a modern one is that often there’s not exact words that translate. It’s not a 1 for 1 exchange. There are certain words that were in the ancient Greek (or Hebrew/Aramaic) that don’t have a modern counterpart in our language. Thus translators have to pick a word, or sometimes several words, that most closely encapsulated the idea of the ancient word. That’s why you see variations in words such as you listed, because there’s not an exact word in the English language. In the case of “gathered together” all the options above are within the same ballpark and shows us a bigger picture of what Matthew was talking about.
Here’s some good resources for studying. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance (you can find it here: https://biblehub.com/strongs.htm) is a great place to start. Dr Tom Constable has some great resources that are free as well (https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/dcc.html). And I use a program called Logos (https://www.logos.com) that basically creates a catalog of all your digital resources and cross references them to give you a ton of info fast. It’s expensive, but quickly helps me get what I need and then some.
Hope that helps!
Thank you!
Thanks for the great article. I would like to point out one though. The step 3 in settling a matter as mentioned in Mathew 18:17 is actually telling it to ekklessia (greek word meaning congregation/church) instead of church leaders. If the verse wanted to mean church leaders, the word for elders would have been used, wouldn’t you agree?
Thank you for the added enlightenment Jeffery Curtis Poor!
Amen!
Hello. Is it true amongst believers that if we ask for something that is in/according to His will, He will give it to us and He wants us to ask? This passage may not be that same subject but it seems as though it is or very close. Please let me know your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
In context of this passage (Matthew 18:19), it does not mean that we can ask for anything and God will grant it to us. What this verse is talking about in context is judicial matters. This is what Mark Moore (a theologian) says, “The prayer of verse 19 is not for “anything” we might plan or desire, but any judicial matter. The word pragma often indicates financial matters or legal decisions.”
Now, there are other areas of the Bible that talk more prayer. But the primary purpose of prayer is not to get from God. Rather to align with God. It’s not about convincing God to give us something, rather it’s about transforming our heart to his. As we spend time with God our wants/desires will align more and more.
I learned that there is a process that is done to help others from “sinning”, at least the same sin, again. First, speak privately to that “sinner”. If “he” doesn’t listen, gather two or more trusted members to inform the “sinner” the error of their ways. If the “sinner” doesn’t listen, and even creates a larger sin, the leaders take charge to help the “sinner” see the greater level of their sin. If “he” still does not listen, the “sinner” is removed.
Much like trump. Many people spoke with him privately to prevent him from going further with revenge and destruction, as in Ukraine. He didn’t listen, causing an impeachment. One person said “I think he’s learned his lesson”. But he didn’t.
He went on to incite the insurrection, regardless of who spoke with him leading up to the insurrection. The leaders impeached him again. It’s now time for a trial. If the “leaders” follow God’s process, the votes to CONVICT him “removes” him from receiving tax payer dollars in the form of a pension, an annual $1 million travel expense, an office, and possibly secret service protection. As well as no briefings, and no opportunity to run for any public office again. All in the name of Jesus, based on God’s words and instructions in the process of eliminating “sinners” and their sins in the church.
This nation IS THE CHURCH. God’s words are our instructions.
I hear what you are saying, but… the nation is NOT the Church. The Church is the body of Christ and is made up off those who follow him. To say that America or any other nation is the church is antithetical to that statement. The mission of the church and the mission of this country are diametrically opposed to on an other. They are not one and the same. The Church is knows no boarders and holds no political allegiance. Jesus is the King and his body is his followers.
No, you are totally wrong. Don’t let your ego presume that your thoughts are the correct thoughts. Kind of reminds me of David Koresh, who began with humility and slowly covered his words with “the absolute truth”. “YOU are wrong – I am right!”. I would demand that you read about the “Historical Christ” including the earliest texts by a non-Christian Roman nobleman (whose name I will let you google search for – he is quoted by all historians of that time, as the legitimate reference and his writings as absolute evidence that there did exist in that area and at that specific time a man who called himself Jesus, and that events people later spoke about did indeed occur, including the miracles. As for your curt reply to the lady making her statement: She was AGREEING with you, dumb nuts. And used the self righteous actions of Donald Trump as an analogy in better understanding the “Process” (which YOU declare was Christ’s true meaning when he spoke the above passages.) You are not a true historian nor expert in any way of the contents nor context of any actions nor words Jesus might have spoken. You list your credentials as husband, father, pastor, writer. That’s great. However, NEVER presume that your interpretation of something is the ONLY interpretation and yours is the correct one. Bad move. Bad track to get on. Koresh took that track, and he murdered thousands. Satan is always on your shoulder remember that. Also, which Bible are you using to draw passages from? Your quoted words from Mathew are much different than those in other Bibles, and some unrecognizable to readers of scripture. You also have misinterpreted her words and responded with grossly wild statements: in fact your entire response is perhaps 40% in the “maybe” column. “That statement is 100% wrong and goes against what the Bible teaches. The Church is the body of Christ and is made up off those who follow him. To say that America or any other nation is the church is antithetical to that statement. The mission of the church and the mission of this country are diametrically opposed to on an other. They are not one and the same. The Church is knows no boarders an…..” Her phrase
“This nation IS THE CHURCH. God’s words are our instructions.” is not to be taken as literal. That’s just silly. As a “pastor” you should know better. Instead you castigate a poor woman who agrees with your thesis but is just trying to make sense of it in her own head. (Oh, why did I bother to waste my time with this. It’s ridiculous, and if you’re a pastor, you better go back and take some refresher classes on social interaction and humility)
I’ve never been compared to Koresh before… That’s a new one.
Wow! Lol!!
Just ignore Nancy James Jeffery. She can’t help it. Great article by the way.
Really of base from what the writer is conveying. Nonetheless, God bless you.
Wow Nancy, you should teach a class on how to respond in love and humility.
Teach!
First of all, I Pray God opens your eyes to see and He gives you ears to hear Him clearly because you are blinded by the devil’s lies! Your mind has been tainted by the propaganda lies of the Democrat Party and propaganda lies of the Mainstream Media’s Lies about President Trump!!! Secondly, if you did real research on Ukraine and the so called “Insurrection”, you would find President Trump was and is Innocent on both Accounts. Just because the Liars ( Democrat’s, Mainstream Media and Swamp Republicans) say something is true doesn’t make it Truth. There is nothing that the Accusers have said about Trump is True. Each and every claim they have brought against President Trump has been proven false and God has brought each and every Lie to be exposed.
The Bible says the devil is the father of lies (John 8:44 ) and Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and the Democratic Party are the children who lie just like the devil, their father. Their is nothing they say, touch, or do that doesn’t go against God and His Word. In fact, everything they do, say or touch is to destroy the very foundations of this Country which was founded on the Word of God and Religious Freedom. They seek to distort life in God’s Eyes for their benefits. Tell me, how Abortion alone is of God. President Trump sought to Protect the Unborn as God is the Creator of Life.I use this example of Abortion only to prove how you believe these liars who oppose God as well!
So suffice it to say, do your homework and research before judging President Trump on the Lies the Democrats, and Mainstream Media have propagated against him. History will prove President Trump was the greatest President of our time. And yes, I do believe the Election was stolen by the Democrats. There is no way that Jackass Biden got 80,000,000 votes when he couldn’t even get 20 people at a Rally! And, yes, if you do your own research, you will find this to be True as well!
Is this for real?
Thank you for the explanation! I really appreciate it.
I very much appreciate you clarifying this passage. I also keep hearing people saying, “When two or three are gathered together, Christ will be in our midst.” As if God doesn’t listen to my silent prayer, or when I pray out loud when I am alone.
I hear that regularly. I know people who read it like that don’t mean ill intent, but that reading can do great harm.
Also, when you use it to try to “heal” a sick person – I often see that on FB. We all can come together to pray for the sick person, and because there are more than one of us praying, we expect a speedily recovery or a miraculous healing. That doesn’t always happen.
I never thought of this verse in this context, but you are absolutely right it has to do with the discipline of the church. Really all you have to do is read the verse.
It’s such a simple concept, yet one we miss all the time. We like the soundbite, but often miss the larger message. I’m certainly guilty of that from time to time. So much misinformation would be cleared up if we just paid attention to the context.
I have a really hard time with how this is presented. “Borderline egregious” is a bold overstatement. How the Lord speaks to you through scripture is for you. It’s a living word. It speaks differently to everyone (hopefully) Scripture also tells us that God is always with us. So if you take it out of context and what you get is “God is with you when you’re gathered in His name” I’d say you’re still very much within the realm of truth in scripture. Please don’t take something biblical that people are encouraged by and tell them not to be encouraged by it.
It’s a living word yes, but that doesn’t mean you can interpret it however you want. That is extremely dangerous and has lead many people to harmful and destructive views. Not to mention disunity when two people arrive at different conclusions.
God will not go against his own word. To willingly and knowingly take scripture out of context is not the way to find truth or grow faith. It’s dangerous and to do some knowingly is irresponsible. God speaks through the Bible, but we still need to have a proper exegesis and read it in context.
I would encourage you do to a little more studying on proper exegesis of the Bible. If you are interested I can provide you some resources from people much smarter than me.
to emphasize your point, I would like to bring to your attention a recent application of Matthew 18:20 that is disturbing;
There is a theory called ‘the mandela effect’; Matthew 18:20 is being used to illustrate this effect by describing the verse as an example of how ‘things’ are being changed by sinister forces (spiritual and worldly). Adherents quote Matthew 18:20 as having been changed from ‘two or more’ to ‘two or three’ because: “we all remember that the original verse stated two or more.” Professed Christians are being lured into this theory by using this verse.
Thank you for your brilliant analysis of this verse.
Amen! I Googled “what does Mat. 18:20 actually mean”? This was b4 I called a very sick acquaintance to offer him some words of spiritual encouragement. After stumbling upon this post, I agree that the one verse alone can very well be misinterpreted. Yes, The Living Word☺.
Mat. 18:15-20 is not only instruction for the church. It is also practical instruction for many situations. For example, letting go of people that are toxic to us personally. A person may try to help another with love, patience, humility, etc…, but maybe the people they are trying to help just keep “getting over”. So foolishly thinking they are so slick. You speak with them with another “authority” on the matter and that person still thinks it’s a joke. So You leave them alone. Hopefully they will see the error of their ways and try to be a more considerate person. If they are serious, they can come back…ijs
So after reviewing this, I will read the whole context of the passage to this soul. It’s Will be even better than I thought with the added enlightenment of this post☺!
???
In other words, I agree with you Mattew. Stay blessed!☺
Thanks, Matthew. I was thinking the same. The writer is trying to make people accept his interpretation of the scripture instead of letting the Holy Spirit teach us to understand the Word of God. We all know from scripture that the Lord is with us always….He will “never leave us nor forsake us”.
I think we need to be clear on the application of Biblical Principles.
No doubt, God is omnipresent, and a very personal God, to Whom we go, whether alone, with 1 other, or a congregation of others, scripture is clear on all of this.
However, in the context of Matthew 18, there is a practical application of a different principle and the writer of this piece is 100% on point, clearly emphasizing that Christ is drawing on the principles found in Deuteronomy 19:15, as applied to the Jewish judicial system of making accusations.
It is also not ‘how the Lord speaks to you through scripture’; that is a very dangerous position to take because then we make scripture about US, when in fact it has nothing to do with us, scripture is a declaration of the person and nature of God. Once again, drawing on biblical principles, it is clear that scripture is not for private interpretation, neither was it given by private interpretation, or it would not be inspired and infallible. (2 Peter 1:19-21)
Scripture declares God, it does not always explain Him, and we do well to accept His declaration, in faith, that He is God. (Hebrews 11:6)
We are however benefactors of this declaration, when excepted and applied in faith, fully able to draw on the person of God for every good and perfect gift that descends from the Father.(James 1:16)
When you read academic papers, you do not read them with the same approach as reading a novel or a comic strip. Reading sports results requires an understanding of the sport in question, just like you cannot service a Chevy by using a Ford workshop manual, and following a map of China will not get you from Rome to Milan or New York to Chicago….. I’m sure you get where I’m going with this.
If you need to be a contortionist to make God’s word fit your life, you’re reading with the wrong approach and it’s like trying to understand football results while watching tennis.
The most basic understanding of scripture is clearest when we stick to this pattern – Any text, not read with it’s co-text, not read in context, becomes a pretext.
May the Holy Spirit inspire us to know, and study to shew ourselves approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2Timothy 2:15)
Blessings in Jesus
Wow! Thank you. That clears up a lot of personal misinterpretation for me.
I don’t see the writer trying to make people except his interpretation. What I see is the writer encouraging readers to not just read the verse what were you before and afterwards and put it in the contacts in the context. There is nothing wrong with context. It is the right thing to do when reading anything. God Bless you all.
I do not think the writer was actually trying to discourage people. lol
It’s dead on. If we pick and choose what we want to hear from the word that’s not correct. If you did that you can go in the Bible and do that anywhere. The Bible is all kingdom based meaning an opinion don’t matter. You read and you study. God is love and like this scripture says. When you do it in this manner he is there with you. Like having your back. That’s like saying he only hears you when you have someone with you. Not true. Love you but to understand you must read above and below to get real meaning. Good word dead on
The statement “It speaks differently to everyone” is not how to interpret a scripture verse. That’s why there has to be a teaching authority because history has proven those who interpret scripture to their own liking has divided Christendom with tragic results that we are still dealing with.
That is the most ridiculous interpretation of scripture that iz possible…I pray that you are not in front of a congregation…that relies on you for instruction…for the road to hell iz paved with good intention however thiz iz pure deception and intended and seductive if people are following you..you are despicable for if people listen and count on you they will surely wind up in a heated lake forever and I AM referring not to a jacuzzi…followers of the word heed to thiz “study and show yourselves approved”…interpret ME this Mr taking scripture out of context…what do interpret thiz to mean:(FALSE PROPHET)
What do you consider “ridiculous” about this interpretation?
David, what Fruit of the Spirit are you displaying in how you respond? I would like to look into that one b/c I must have missed it!
An extension to the part saying “if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” is that nothing is actually said about removing them from the church. It says “treat them”, which implies returning to the process and methods used to convert a non-belliever. Go back to the basics. Extend the invitation again. As many times as you or your church members can. Never give up hope that the person may someday return to the church.
Certainly we are called to continue to love. But I think there’s a balance to find about the removal. In some instances there might need to be a physical removal for the protection of the larger body. Think in terms of abuse. In other cases it might just be a removal from leadership positions, but they are still welcomed into church services. Think of a moral failure of a small group leader. The point is, I think each situation will differ on what “removal” means. The one thing that should remain strongest is that love is the primary motivating factor.
exactly. I agree. the removal means different things in different situations.
Perfectly said! I wrote about this last year, and I got some push back on it, though I’m not sure why. The Bible is clear. Thanks for helping spread the truth of God’s word. God bless!
What did you find pushback on?
Thank you so very much for explaining that Bible passage so well. I always appreciate, when other believers. Share their understanding and help me grow in my knowledge of God’s word, may God richly bless you.
Well if I have anykind of problem with any member I am not going to no Elder Priest whatsoever I take it up with the Creator no middle Man.
You should go to God, but you should also go to the person you have a problem with. But you might need a “middle man”, or mediator, to help solve the problem if one or both parties are unwilling to listen to each other.